Jim,
In response to Martin's recent letter ["New-Found
Respect for .223 as a Potential Man Stopper]: While the .223 (5.56mm
NATO)
round may work on the unsuspecting deer or thin-skinned varmint that is standing
still,
the
situation
changes
when you are dealing with larger animals or highly aggressive and motivated
individuals. In times like these, a .30 caliber round, i.e. the .308 (7.62x51
NATO) or Soviet
7.62x39mm is a more dependable man stopper. Why do you think there was a move
to the larger 6.8mm round to replace or at least supplant the 5.56mm? Poor
performance on the battlefield.
Most soldiers I talk to here [in Iraq] would much rather have a .30 caliber
rifle, if given the choice. For hunting, I prefer any .33 caliber or larger
for hunting
game. I want my game anchored in place when I hit them, and that is more likely
to happen with the larger caliber bullets.
The .223 is not a useless cartridge, and I think everybody should have one
because it is so common, and there are some who [because of their stature]
can better handle the rifles built around this cartridge. But as a choice for
a
main battle rifle or main hunting rifle, make mine a .30 caliber! Regards,
- Stephen
in Iraq
Jim
I will have to disagree with [Martin's assertion that .233 is a potential man
stopper]
due
to
the
fact
that
I
have
been
in
battle with the .223 against, the 7.62x39 and the 308 caliber. Except for a head
shot,
the .223 is not a man stopper with one round. It has always been taught to
use multiple rounds to make sure. The US military teaches two rounds to the
chest and one to the head when using this round. The 7.62x39 and the .308
is
a much heavier caliber with more energy and stopping power. These two calibers
are the most used calibers in the world of standard battle use, and if your
looking for a CQB caliber
I would go with 9mm or .45 ACP, or 12 gauge. In my opinion (and you need to
trust me on this) the 223 is a nice small game
caliber
or short ranger sniper caliber but not a good caliber
for a primary weapon. This is why the US military is moving toward the .308
in their new battle rifles. - CDR
James:
Martin's success hunting Bambi with a scoped long-barreled (24-inch bull barrel)
.223 bolt-action, shooting extra-heavy bullets that are handloaded for extreme
velocity
is
hardly analogous
to
self-defense shooting
with a
semi-auto. He is "comparing apples and oranges." Most of the AR-15
family guns
being
built these days are M4 clones with
16" barrels.or even 14.5" barrels (and a welded-on flash hider
to make
it
legally
16+ inch length.)
And, hey, let's be realistic, the odds are that they are going to be loaded
with standard 55 grain or 62 grain ball ammo. That is the real world.
You cannot load
a semi-auto with screaming velocity 68 grain bullets. Let's face it: In the
real world
.223 just doesn't cut the mustard as an effective combat round. The.308 Winchester rules.
- Clyde G.
Jim
In response to the recent article about the .223 as a man stopper, I commend
their fine shooting skills and found the article very interesting since I
have also taken a deer with a .223.
I have reservation as to how some readers of this site may misunderstand the
information provided. Most of the .223 caliber rifles we deal with on SurvivalBlog.com
are of the AR type. Yes I agree that when the .223 is hand loaded with high
performance bullets and fired from a long barreled bolt action rifle is has
a substantially increased amount of energy over factory loads. When in the
hands of a good marksman it could be used to take down deer and would be much
more lethal against humans. But, the performance achieved by this writer should
not be used to over estimate the capabilities of this cartridge. The data used
in the article does not apply to a short barrel AR-type rifle using the FMJ military style ammo that it was designed for. In fact I doubt that this cartridge
would perform reliably in most AR’s. Most any cartridge can be loaded
to perform over their commercially designed level. A custom loaded .308 fired
from a bolt action, 26-inch barrel rifle will perform at the level of a 300
Winchester Magnum, but I certainly would not fire that round it in my M1A.
Just trying to keep things in perspective. Jack R
Hi Jim,
Great web site as always! SurvivalBlog a daily must-read and I recommend it
all the time--usually to find out my friends that I'm recommending it to are
already reading it!
I was just wondering about the best .223 rounds, after reading the letter "New-Found
Respect for .223 as a Potential Man Stopper." Perhaps you could go
into some detail with your own thoughts on this subject? The old 55 grain milsurp was a great round out of a slow-twist long barreled M16 or AR-15, but perhaps
it's
less effective out of the faster twist rifling shorter barreled "M4geries" popular
today.
Also, as civilians in a post SHTF scenario,
we won't be restricted by [Hague] Convention regulations concerning hollow
points and other special bullets.
What are your thoughts on the best bullets to maximize the killing / stopping
/ wounding characteristics of our .223 rifles?
I recognize that eventually we may be scrounging every round of any type of
milsurp we can get our hands on, but for the crucial first months of when the SHTF,
it will pay to have mags loaded with the very most effective bullets/cartridges
available today. There will be no long term survival if we don't get past the
opening stages of SHTF, which might be a chaotic bloodbath, especially during
a bugout or a period of mass refugee movement. Thanks, - Matt
Bracken
JWR Replies: I hold with the consensus that .308 Winchester/7.62mm
NATO is preferable for nearly all defensive rifle shooting scenarios. But
I can see
the wisdom
of having a few .223 (5.56mm NATO) rifles and carbines for specific
circumstances, namely:
A.) As a transitional training rifle for youths.(Moving
up from .22 rimfire to .308 Winchester is quite a leap for a 12 year old Just
ask our #2 Son!)
B.) To equip disabled, elderly, and/or very small-statured
(although it is
notable
that my petite
wife does just fine with .308 semi-auto with a shortened
barrel
and
stock.)
C.)
As a long range patrol (LRP)
or "long trek" on-foot G.O.O.D. defensive
weapon. and,
D.) Just for the sake of having a rifle in your battery that can fire
the ubiquitous
military
and
police rifle
cartridge in North
America. (You never know when you might acquire a case of 5.56mm NATO!)
For those of you that do decide to add a .223 rifle to your battery, there is one crucial thing to keep in mind: Most of the .223 soft nose bullets available for handloading and nearly all of the commercially-loaded soft nose .223 Remington ammunition use semi-jacketed spire point bullets that are designed for instantaneous expansion on contact. This is because they were designed specifically for varmint hunting. This makes them sub-optimal for defensive use against two-legged predators at range. (Although if you live in town and are worried about accidentally penetrating several walls, then rapid expansion and disintegration is a good thing! The Hornady TAP bullet is a good design for this.) Fortunately, since .223 is gaining popularity for deer hunting in the eastern US, this should soon change. I anticipate that .223 "large game" (slow expansion) soft nose bullets and factory loaded ammunition will be available from most of the major ammunition makers within a couple of years.
Until slow expansion soft point ammunition is available, I recommend buying nearly all SS-109 (62 grain full metal jacket) ammunition. And even after slow expansion hollow points are available, keep in mind that they won't have the penetration required to take down an opponent wearing body armor at long range. The ideal solution would be to have ballistically-matched 62 grain soft nose cartridges loaded alternating (every-other round in each magazine) with 62 grain SS-109 cartridges. But that will only be accurate and effective if the two cartridges have nearly identical trajectories. (Working up a ballistically-matching soft nose load is a fun challenge for those of you that handload.)
